How Leading with Empathy Helps Build Elite Sales Teams

Lucas Price: [: 00:00:00

These are some of the topics we're going to be discussing today with our guest, Jackie Papazian. Jackie's workplace superpower is building and empowering teams of happy people who generate more revenue faster. Over the past 10 years, she has sold and led teams selling complex software to some of the most notable brands in the world.

While earning accolades for both her performance as a seller and as a people leader, among other sales and leadership positions, Jackie has held the title of VP of sales and sales development at Aurea software and sales leader at trackstar. Jackie, thanks for being with us here today.

be here today. Thank you for [: 00:01:00

Lucas Price: Besides those things that I talked about in your intro, what should our audience know about you and your background? How did you get into a career in sales?

Jackie Papazian: Yeah, my career started off, early on as an entrepreneur and I went to a school, I got my bachelor's in business administration, went on to get my MBA and really have been in sales my whole life.

It's, I think just woven into the fabric of who I am. But about 10 years ago, pivoted to a career specifically in tech sales.

Lucas Price: And tell me about what you were doing that led you from sales into sales leadership.

Jackie Papazian: Like most sales leaders I started out as an individual contributor and then was promoted, multiple times based off of high performance.

ndividual. So I think that's [: 00:02:00

Lucas Price: Yeah, that's so important for sales leadership because it's not the motivations that every high performing seller has. And so I think a lot of times high performing sellers think they want to be in sales leadership because of the prestige, but it's really hard to make that transition unless you want, really want to help other people succeed.

Jackie Papazian: Absolutely. I think, empathy is at the heart of why I'm such a great sales leader specifically. And really. Again, just feeling that it's more rewarding to watching others succeed versus just having that individual success.

u'd attribute to helping you [: 00:03:00

Jackie Papazian: sales?

It's everything in my background, . I can pull from, just my experience in school, whether it's, being an ASB or some type of leader on campus, definitely can pull from my experience in sports and leading teams and just. Having that will to win and being super competitive and driven.

So I can pull from a lot of different experiences on why, sales and sales leadership is such a great fit for my kind of. Persona.

Lucas Price: As a sales leader. What are your pillars for building high performing organizations?

Jackie Papazian: I think about these pillars as I'm hiring and interviewing for sales folks as well.

redibly positive mindset and [: 00:04:00

I'm a huge Kobe Bryant fan, all the greats have a similar thing where they're absolutely focused on continuous improvement, in this pursuit to become a better version of themselves every day. And believing, truly believing in your ability and that you will reach the results that you desire.

So the first thing, I set as an expectation for my team is coming with a really positive growth mindset.

Lucas Price: Yeah that's great. Are there other pillars that we should talk about today ? What are the other pillars that you think are most important?

Jackie Papazian: Yeah, definitely. On the flip side to starting with the positive mindset, I think is having, especially in tech sales with the tools that we have and just the advancements over the last, 10 years coming from a extremely data driven perspective and having some solid optimized playbooks in place.

und it. So it's a repeatable [: 00:05:00

In the way that I, work with my team and the way that they work with me, but especially in the way that we, work with our clients.

Lucas Price: Tell me a little bit more about that. Do you have examples of where you've seen high empathy make a big difference either in a sales situation or a sales leadership situation?

Jackie Papazian: I have a ton of examples on how high empathy helped us win deals, but unfortunately I have somewhere a lack of empathy led to a loss of a deal. I think there's a lot you can learn from.

're looking at everything to [: 00:06:00

And this all relates to empathy,. Really understanding the landscape, what they want, what they need, and how can we position our solution to serve them and ultimately get us a win, . There's two specific pretty large opportunities. I can think back to watching game tape post meeting where a prospect, she said something 10 times throughout the period of the call and our sales rep and leader that were on that call kept pushing back and challenging and not really accepting what.

The thing that she was saying she needed or wanted. And, you can see the body language and tone towards the end of that call, watching it I knew at that point the deal was done. We had lost it. We had lost it because she repeated herself 10 times throughout the call and we were having a hard time accepting what she was saying

Lucas Price: make sure I [: 00:07:00

Jackie Papazian: That's exactly it. Yeah. We weren't listening, we weren't listening. We were staying focused on the thing that we wanted versus hearing what they were clearly sharing that they needed.

And that led to a loss of that deal. And it was a pretty large deal as well.

Lucas Price: That, that makes sense. What about in in leadership situations? I think that, a lot of times, when you're having difficult conversations, it can be like really difficult to get to the truth.

And it feels like it can be, for me, sometimes it feels like it can be challenging to find what's the right line between empathy and accountability. When, there are different versions of the truth out there. How do you think about empathy in those types of situations and navigating something like that?

l or the process around that [: 00:08:00

Am I being transparent with them? Have I created this space where they feel safe? To, to fail to try new things to challenge, maybe me, if they have a different opinion or some data that, conflicts with what I shared. And so I think intentionally creating a safe space for your team, for my team it allows us to be vulnerable and then really learn and grow and win together.

So that is really at the heart of everything. And if you haven't successfully created that environment then it's really going to be hard to do, anything tactical in the way of, how are you giving feedback or how are they receiving feedback? Or how do you bridge the gap between high empathy and accountability?

I think the [: 00:09:00

Lucas Price: So as our listeners are hearing you say that and thinking about their sales organizations, how would they know if they've created that, that safe space that allows people to to fail and deal with failure and confront failure and not, be scared of it or hide it?

Jackie Papazian: If you've earned the trust of your team, They are very they're open about that, . So I have a lot of my team members will openly tell me how much, they trust me and appreciate that I believe in them and allow for this, different schools of thought and things like that.

So I think if you have that space as a leader, you'll know because they'll tell you. So if they're not sharing that they're feeling that way, that might be a red flag that You know, they're not comfortable. They're not feeling safe speaking up and challenging. Maybe what leadership, what path leadership is taking them down?

So I think that's 1 way to know is, are they telling you

Lucas Price: If someone [: 00:10:00

Jackie Papazian: One of the things that I remind myself to do often with my teams is model the behavior that I want from them. Sharing some of my own failures or, being vulnerable and hey, that's a great question. And I might not. Know it. I don't know that, but let's figure it out together, .

Let's do some research. Let's do some digging. Let's figure it out together. So I think demonstrating that I'm could be vulnerable with them and, admit my, mistakes or failures and, that I too am working on continuously improving as a leader. Just empowers them to do the same.

Lucas Price: There could be a type of leader. And I think ultimately these type of leaders don't do well, but I think there could be a type of leader who thinks, the way I'll create a safe space is just by being nice to everyone.

ght be the kind thing to say [: 00:11:00

And so how do you do that? How do you make sure that deal with the voice inside you that says Oh, how do I say this in a really nice way so that they're going to like me and instead give them, do the kind thing and tell them the truth.

Jackie Papazian: Yeah, that's a great distinction.

So I wouldn't say I'm always necessarily nice. But I think giving clear direction up front. So your team understands what the expectations are. And making them, objective, . But when you're giving, when I'm giving call coaching, let's say, or feedback in real time, I think it's really important to start with the positives,.

's what you said. This might [: 00:12:00

We can try next time. Versus, that was bad or awful or shouldn't have said that. So I think we can just say things in a positive, through a positive lens, even if it's something that they could be doing better.

Lucas Price: There are certain times where there are people on the team who haven't lived up to their commitments, don't want to live up to their commitments. And so they will no matter how safe the space is, they want to change the story away from the commitments that they've made from what the expectations are on the team.

way from that accountability [: 00:13:00

How do you deal with those situations or think about them differently?

Jackie Papazian: I think you're right about that, . This is creating that safe space, leading with empathy, having environment where, there's lots of coaching, but folks are open to it.

That's not 100 percent of the time, going to work for everyone. And the reality is there might be some folks on my team or on someone else's team that. Culturally, it's not the right fit or, regardless of how much I work to empower them, if that's not within them, I can't do it for them.

tools, to, cheer you on to, [: 00:14:00

But there has to be some spark, some grit, some will to win just intrinsically and folks for them to be, a high performer. In tech sales or really anything else, whether it's, basketball or anything else, it has to, there has to be a spark. I can feel the fire with you, but that spark has to be within them.

Lucas Price: Yeah, I totally agree. In that situation that you talked about earlier on where you had the the buyer who, was repeatedly bringing something up that. You're you in the sales situation you were avoiding or you were arguing back instead of really, your team was arguing back instead of understanding the objection.

How do you teach a seller to get better at empathy? It feels like one of these mindset things where a lot of times people are either good at it or not good at it. I think that there are ways to teach it, but I'm curious about your ideas about how to teach it.

Jackie Papazian: I agree. I think there are ways to teach it as well.

I [: 00:15:00

We'll gather around the virtual room play certain 2 minute monologues from the prospect. I'll pause. And everyone around the room will share what did they hear and what do they think it meant? And we call these green flags and we'll go through and document all the green flags we think we're hearing from a particular prospect.

in the way that, what are we [: 00:16:00

And then the next step is now how would we respond, . That's relevant to what they just shared. So we do go through these like listening exercises and that's how I train and I coach on this.

Lucas Price: Yeah I think those are great ways to practice. The other thing that I'll add is that this is a personal experience for me, and I think it probably applies to some other people out there, but it might not be the same for everyone.

But I think in, in, there are situations. Where I can get a little bit of stage fright or nervousness about a big sales call or recording a podcast or giving a live presentation to hundreds of people or thousands of people. And I find like the more that I do those, the less I become nervous about doing more of them.

And the more I'm able to monitor my emotional state and deal with my emotional state in terms of that, the stage fright. And so if you think about stage fright in this. Case of a sales call, being able to practice. This is what I'm going to do, with this objection and then going in and doing it.

And [: 00:17:00

Jackie Papazian: Absolutely. Preparation, . It's, I'll go back to Kobe Bryant here. He's never nervous to take that. The winning shot and he'll say it and you'll hear him in interviews is he'll say I'll never ask myself to do in a game when I haven't done in practice 10, 000 times. And so I'm not nervous when I have to take the game winner because I've done this a thousand times in practice.

So it's preparation, being prepared for the different, and there's a lot that we know typically before we go into a first client call, through discovery, whatever they shared prior through SDR qualification calls. There's typically a lot that a seller knows. Before they interact for the first time with a potential buyer.

And so being as prepared as [: 00:18:00

Lucas Price: For our listeners who are thinking like, I want to increase the empathy on my team. I want to be a more empathetic leader and I want to to help my team be better listeners on sales calls. What are the things that could go wrong as they try to implement on that in their sales organization?

Jackie Papazian: If we took one step back before creating the culture, I would say hire for it, hire for high empathy, emotionally intelligent people. I think a lot of us are observing right now that in the hiring kind of market.

that we want, to sell on our [: 00:19:00

And I think it's a superficial kind of way of building a sales team and hiring. And we're not looking at the. The holistic person,. Do they have high emotional intelligence? You can't filter for that in a hiring tool, . Are they coachable? Do they have a positive mindset? So I would advise sales leaders to start there.

Hire the folks that are coachable. Positive in mindset, organically, high emotional intelligence, even if they necessarily don't have that exact experience, you think that they need to sell your product to your buyer. If they come with all of those things, and it's really easy to train and coach and foster that environment where, you have high empathy, high performing sellers.

Lucas Price: Do you have any things that you like to do in the interview or any particular questions or anything that you'll use to screen for that

ll will do role plays where, [: 00:20:00

Review a particular role play and then we do it and then I give them some coaching and some things that I'd like them to maybe try next time and then we'll break for 10 minutes and come back on. So they have a little bit of time to prepare and then I'll measure, did they put those.

Did they, first of all, did they hear me, did they, were they able to translate that into the second role play and things like that, quickly measure coachability and high EQ positive mindset. I look at the person just holistically on, there's ways that they're phrasing any of the answers.

For the questions I'm asking during interviews, we'll lend to whether they're a half glass fuller, half glass empty type of, or person.

Lucas Price: Yeah, I think that's great. Totally agree with that. I'll add in an interview question. I like around emotional intelligence.

uestions I like for that is, [: 00:21:00

And so what I'm looking for there is, I was catching the signals, I could read the room and then this is what I did about it, to try to change the situation. And so to me that's a question that gives people a good opportunity to demonstrate their history of dealing with of being emotionally intelligent and stressful situations.

Jackie Papazian: Yeah. Oh, I love that question. Yeah. And we've all, I don't know what the statistic is today, how many buyers trust salespeople. So it's such a good question because for anyone that's self aware, we've been in a situation where, a buyer or client didn't necessarily trust us right away.

ly refer to it that way. But [: 00:22:00

Obviously it's something you look for during the hiring process.

If someone ends up in your sales organization and you're like, Hey, I thought they were going to be like a nine on this and they're really more like a six. Is that something that you can develop or do you really just have to hire for it?

Jackie Papazian: It depends on how open that particular person is.

To grow and to change and to develop,. If they don't have it and they're not open to developing it that might be a person that's just not going to be a good fit over, over time. But as a leader, I do feel it's part of my responsibility to drumbeat these messages. We're talking daily about positive mindset.

to be consistent with these [: 00:23:00

And so that's the role I take on is just, sprinkling the positive, all day to my team. Now how much individuals absorb is. It falls in their court, . If they're going to get on board and develop their mindset. But again, there has to be some spark within them.

We can't do it for them as leaders, but I think it's our job to empower them and believe in them and encourage it.

Lucas Price: As a leader, a lot of times there are things that you can do to pull it out of them. One, one story that comes to mind for me from my background is. I had a individual contributor that I was managing and I was having a conversation with them and they, they told me that they needed more specific direction from me.

I and I told them, all right [: 00:24:00

And then they went home that night, reflected on it and came back to me the next day. And they said, Hey, Lucas, I've thought about it. And I'm I am able to take on that responsibility of figuring out how to get from A to B, . When I think about who I really am, like I can figure that out.

And so I'm going to take that on. And so if you can continue to tell me you need to get to be, I'll take on the responsibility of how to get from A to B. And so it was something that came out of them when they heard reflected back to them, what they were saying to me when they heard it from me.

I'm not necessarily giving myself credit for it, but I'm just saying that sometimes when, people, there are things that you can say intentionally or accidentally that will help people to see themselves in a certain light. That's not who they want to be. And it will change their mindset.

Jackie Papazian: Yeah, [: 00:25:00

And what a great example of self awareness for that particular person to, and clear direction from you. So I think some leaders do fall short in, in even. Giving the direction that B is where we're going, right? We're at A, we want to get to B. There's some teams that they're not even sure of the direction.

So again, I think that falls on us as leaders to make sure that we're clearly communicating. The outcomes we want, where we want to go, but there's responsibility for our individual contributors. To be accountable to help us all get there.

Lucas Price: When you first told us about, the mindset, the Mamba mentality being one of your core pillars, you said, I know some people might see this as fluffy or, not specific enough.

And so I imagine you're saying that because you've had people within your sales organization who thought that it was who didn't buy in initially. How do you deal with that?

Yes I've heard fluffy quote [: 00:26:00

What does it even mean to have a positive mindset, but it really is just at. The heart of, and not just, forget about sales for a second, . Whether any element, any aspect of our lives believing that you can accomplish X, Y, Z, it all starts there, . Kobe has a really interesting really interesting interview on self doubt and why it's so pointless.

And he talks about from a basketball lens, . Look, we're going to show up to a game and there's two outcomes. We're going to win or we're going to lose. And then the next day we're going to start the journey all over again, . Regardless of the outcome from yesterday and the next game we're going to win or we're going to lose.

So why waste any amount of energy on not believing that you're going to win, . Why let any doubt creep in that you're going to get the outcome that you want because it's just wasted energy. There's still only two outcomes. You're going to win or you're going to lose. You're going to get to wake up and do the journey all over again, .

y with a different client to [: 00:27:00

Lucas Price: What happens when you have a team member who says, yeah, Jackie, I understand you feel that way. I just want to know what I need to do. I'm just going to hit my quota. I don't really care about the mindset stuff. When you're faced with that sort of skepticism on your team, how do you how do you think about dealing with that person?

Jackie Papazian: Yeah. And I have had a few of those folks and here's what I tell them. So long as you're exceeding your quota, you can get there however feels right for you. But if you're not exceeding your quota, I need you to buy into this process. So if you don't want to sit and talk about, positive mindset and call coaching and all the things that, I lean into to drive high performing teams, get the results.

And if you, and I realized there are a number of different ways. Folks succeed. There's not a one, one size fits all kind of solution and sales or anything. And I've had folks on my team who exceed their quota without, focusing in on these pillars that I believe are important.

And I'm okay with that. [: 00:28:00

So long as they're exceeding their revenue numbers, that's great.

Lucas Price: This is a great conversation today. As we think about empathy, mindset, what are, a couple of takeaways that you'd distill out from everything we've talked about today that you would leave our listeners with in terms of the most important things we've talked about to keep in mind?

make sure that we are being [: 00:29:00

I think there's a. A grand responsibility for leaders in sales and in the world that it really does, in my opinion, start with us. And so if you don't have the team culture or results or, level of empathy or that you want, I would say turn that mirror to you first. And ensure that's what you're providing for your team and your team will follow.

I promise. So it might be, again, a bit of a controversial statement. Maybe not, but that's 1 thing I would encourage. leaders to do is ensure that we are, we are modeling the behavior that we want.

Lucas Price: I agree. I think a lot of times inside a organization, maybe you're doing annual surveys of the employees to, to measure their engagement and stuff like that.

And [: 00:30:00

And I think that you're right, that you have to like, look inward for why someone believes that even if it isn't a hundred percent true, because there is. A sliver of truth in there and there is something that you as a leader or your leadership team is doing to create that belief. And so I think that's a great bit of wisdom to take away.

practicing is that it's very [: 00:31:00

So those are a couple of my takeaways. Thanks for joining Jackie. Where can people find you online?

Jackie Papazian: Yeah, on LinkedIn as well. Absolutely connect with me as well. And thank you so much, Lucas, for inviting me onto your show. Absolutely appreciate and enjoyed this conversation with you as well.

Lucas Price: If you enjoyed this episode of Building Elite Sales Teams, please leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. You can find more of our content online. It yardstick. team slash blog. And connect with me on LinkedIn.