How Constructive Competition Can Accelerate Sales Excellence

Lucas Price: [: 00:00:00

He has a bachelor's in music from the college of Idaho. An MBA from Northwest Nazarene University, and he spent nine years selling insurance, then three years recruiting students. And now eight and a half years at ZoomInfo. At ZoomInfo, Steve started as a sales development rep. He progressed to a senior SDR, and then a commercial account executive, a senior account executive, a sales manager.

you've had just about every [: 00:01:00

Steve Waters: Thankfully not sales ops. And that's not my bag, but yeah, it's a real pleasure to be here and a great to meet you. It's fun to meet somebody from the neighborhood.

Lucas Price: Yeah. What else should our audience know about you and your background?

Steve Waters: I think it's just the liberal arts education, going to the College of Idaho. It's 800 students. So I got to know every professor and every other student. And that was a place where I really thrived and took that. And it's helped me be able to relate to a variety of people on a variety of issues and different topics.

And that helps sales. You can be a chameleon and try to meet people where they're at in terms of their communication style and what they're interested in and everything else. In the current role, we have about 70 account executives, about 10 managers, and then two directors.

is them. We IPO'd in June of: 2020

Lucas Price: yeah, I bet. I'm curious about the music degree. I have a friend who is a professional piano player, and I always tell people that he's the most entrepreneurial person that I know because, he has so many different things and gigs and companies going on in order to make a living as a professional piano player.

I know that's not quite your circumstance, but I'm curious is there a connection between a music degree and sales?

e I graduated from college in: 2004

But I think there's something special that happens with creativity. And, 80 percent of musicians that I know constantly show up late and everything's a mess and their [00:03:00] car is just full of junk and, they can't really, until they rerun from their elbow in terms of being able to stay organized.

But the 20 percent that can, I think can leverage a lot of that creativity to see the world differently. And try to solve problems in some creative ways. And you also have to be able to manage personalities. If you've ever been in a band, it's like having, three or four spouses, depending on the size of the band and all the really heavy personalities and egos.

And that helps. If you can work with that group, you can calm down a, a upset procurement team or a prospect that's concerned, so yeah, I'm not sure about the connection between music and entrepreneurship. It's probably just the creativity that you practice constantly and flex that muscle whenever you can is what I probably guess.

determination where they're [: 00:04:00

Steve Waters: Yeah, it's a good question. I feel like I didn't have any skills. When I graduated from college and I was like very concerned about the, my potential to be successful. And my father worked in the insurance business. He owned Jim Waters Insurance. They're on 12th Avenue across from the rec center in Napa.

And it was really good to my family. And so I thought my dad said, if you can spell insurance, you can do it. And I know I liked people. I know I was extroverted. And so I just tried that out and I sold final expense insurance, where it was like burial insurance for seniors that didn't want to be a burden to their families, like little 10, 000 whole life policies.

th on these policies. And It [: 00:05:00

And once I realized that, then it was just like the world was my oyster. And it wasn't until I got to discover org, which is now zoom info that I really started to figure out sales. I floundered for those first one. I was okay, but once I realized that I could be really competitive with the team here, then I knew that the money would come.

All the rewards. So I just figured, Hey, I'm going to pick, three to five people on the sales team and always try to beat them every month. And they knew that I was going to beat them. And it was a friendly thing. We thought the real competition is outside of these walls.

It's not. Within the team that said, if you can be the best, all the financial rewards and the equity and everything else will come with it. And that was my North Star coming in. There have been people here that had been here, one to seven years earlier than I had.

And one of the reps had [: 00:06:00

But for me, I knew that if I could beat some of the top reps that it would encourage them to be better. But then also, I would get all the financial rewards, which is, what motivates more most salespeople.

Lucas Price: Do you think that there's a discipline that came from music as well that allowed you to be like, Hey, I get better at this by, having this discipline by practicing and a realization that you can get better at something.

Steve Waters: Yeah, I thought about it more just in the past few minutes. And I think it's for me, the skill that was so valuable was I played a whole lot of every style of music, but a lot of jazz in college and I played drums and then sang the vocal jazz group and drums are like my main thing. And.

chool where people would say [: 00:07:00

It's if you're just playing like someone else, that's not your voice. That's someone else's. And then my good friend Camden Hughes, who's also from Nampa, set me straight. And he's if you think that you're gonna learn a few solos of Charlie Parker's and sound just like him, you're crazy.

And that applies to sales because, we record our calls. We use chorus. ai that Zuma owns, right? It's one of the market leaders. competes with gong and a bunch of others for conversational intelligence. And we use that religiously. And what I would do is I would learn the style or the licks, the phrases that people would have on the sales team and then emulate that.

his objection, I could sound [: 00:08:00

And, push like a Jake Sheffrin. So it was like, I could take all these different styles and fills of the drummers that I looked up to and go into Stuart Copeland mode or John Bonham mode or, Travis Barker mode or whatever it was. And I think that skill set for music. Yeah, it's obvious that you can get better at something you practice and, try to get 1 percent better every day, which is one of the mantras here at Zoom Info.

Because the cumulative effects of getting 1 percent better every day is, really mind boggling when you start to add it up, but I think it's more emulating other people and their styles and then say, okay if I can do that and take what they do and add it to my own game, sometimes I try it and I fall on my face.

imes I try it and I go, Ooh, [: 00:09:00

It's different every time. So yeah, I think that's More directly how music impacts my background music impacts my ability to be an individual seller totally different as a manager But as a seller learning my own voice and my own chops and everything else That was a really valuable thing that I went through.

er leader when you initially [: 00:10:00

Steve Waters: maybe You know, and I know that I said that I was good at selling final expense, but then I also struggled. It was like I was good at it compared to some of the other people that did it. And I liked it, I think it was the fact that I was selling insurance and the more you learn about that, the less you like it, and that's, me being really intellectually curious, I wanted to know everything about the policies and the language and why companies didn't pay.

And, when I went to work for my father's agency, how the auto insurance policies work or why homeowners insurance policies include certain things. And the more I would learn, the more frustrated I would get. And then. I remember watching this interview with Trey Parker and Matt Stone, the guys from South Park, and they were like, yeah, you don't want to be cool in high school because the people who are cool in high school are now like selling insurance or something lame.

ressure of sales without the [: 00:11:00

That would be unethical. I think so it was like sales. I still consider it a sales job and that you were selling the college trying to get these students that could go to a different school to go somewhere else, but it wasn't really until I came here where we're technology enabled. I was like, Oh my God, we have sales force.

This is so incredible, and we have Google calendar. This is amazing, and All these things that then I realized that, oh, okay, I'm part of a team of smart people that work really hard and iron sharpens iron here. And that's when I really started to get my stride and be successful.

It was I had worked at places where you hear, Oh, is it five o'clock yet? And we're working hard or hardly working and here everyone took it so seriously, we were having fun, but it was also like. Everyone wanted to be the best. Everyone wanted to be a master of their craft.

And that culture is where I [: 00:12:00

So it just seemed like once that aligned, it all made sense to me. And I could be a really good individual seller. Then in terms of being a manager, I floundered a lot, but I eventually figured out how to do that.

Lucas Price: Now you're an accomplished manager. What are some of the things that you've learned along the way?

Steve Waters: One of the biggest lessons I learned early on was I thought I had to know all the answers to everyone's questions all the time. And I thought I had to be this expert that they had to come to and I would just be. The man and have the responses right away. And that no one's going to have all the answers to every different thing.

o say. They say the wackiest [: 00:13:00

Typically when one of the salespeople that reported to me when they would come to me, with some big problem, I could ask them a question. It's okay, so what are you doing to solve that? Or what does the data say? Or, what things have you tried and why didn't they work? I don't have to have the answers.

I can just turn around and most of the time. That individual seller is going to have as good or better an answer as I would. And that can guide them along. Now, naturally I. Have the respect because I've done it and I've thrived in the role But that was one of the things that I learned that Was a big mistake.

he conversation with is this [: 00:14:00

We're going to have people that are really good at certain parts of the sales process. So really good at prospecting, or they sound really good on the phone. People that write really good follow ups. People that have a good system. For their pipeline, those that tell the story of the company really well, those that handle objections, those that can create urgency and close in a way those can get people to commit to, larger deals to longer term agreements.

Those are all like specific skills that people have that In the same way that I would listen to, my favorite drummers or my favorite jazz musicians and emulate them, the trick that I learned or the technique that I learned across the team is to take the reps that are really good at one of those things.

Then recognize them [: 00:15:00

really good at. And that does two main lifts. The first lift is that rep gets this shot of confidence and of good, serotonin and dopamine and all that stuff, and they feel really good about themselves, and they carry that confidence into their next call. And Lucas, I don't have to tell you how important confidence is in sales, right?

But it's very, obviously, right? Confidence is probably the most important thing. And that's how you say something. And I've heard sales referred to as the transfer of enthusiasm from one party to another. And while I don't think that's a hundred percent true, there's a lot there and the confidence is a big part of that.

ing someone. And then making [: 00:16:00

And if I can teach the rest of my team to create urgency. And to be able to close or to be able to present pricing in a really compelling way, like my best sellers, then I can like Mr. Potato Head together, the best sellers with this person's urgency and this person's discovery and this person's storytelling and this person's conviction and.

Everyone can get better. The third thing that it does that's probably least important but still valuable is they don't have to hear me talk every time that it's this variety of a second voice of, different perspectives on what we're doing every day. And it keeps it interesting because the last thing they want to hear is me tell the same stories or solve the problems in the same way.

So doing that on a [: 00:17:00

Lucas Price: I love that. My wife went to optometry school and she said at the medical school where she went, the philosophy was see one, do one, teach one. And, and that's how you learn a new skill is, by teaching it to others. And so it sounds like that's a part of what you're doing there as well, which I love.

So are you going out and looking for, all right, what's the one thing that this. Seller is better at than everyone else, or is that, does that sort of just bubble up and become obvious and you just highlight the people who are obviously the best at it, or what's the process to identify those people that should be doing that?

ng system, and so we're very [: 00:18:00

Okay. It's this rep. Then I go look at the recordings in Chorus, or I see if the stats from Chorus will help me understand why that is, and then I'll just ask the rep, . It all starts with data. I look at what's going right and what's going wrong on the team, as I constantly monitor the data, when I see that there are things going wrong.

Then I think, okay, what inputs contribute to that? Are we not self prospecting enough? How can I help the team do that? Or, our average sales price is going down. Why is that? Okay, who has a really high average sales price? What are they doing that's different? How can I teach that to the team?

ets managed in that respect. [: 00:19:00

How do they teach the team to do that? And so start with the data. Look at what's going and what's going wrong. Do I want to fix the things that are going poorly or do I want to try to capitalize on the things that are doing well? Hey, in some reps, their love language, as it were, is not, they'd rather die than present to the team, . So sometimes they'll just play a recording of them on the call that's recorded through chorus, and sometimes that does the speaking. But generally. Salespeople are extroverted and want to talk to the team and most of us want that public recognition.

And so I can give them that recognition. They want to be part of the spotlight. So 80 percent of them want to do that. And that's how I find the reps that do that. And then we come up with a presentation and we get the call clips and then we all listen to them in an hour. And we do that every single week.

t certain things and letting [: 00:20:00

Lucas Price: It sounds like this ties back to where, when you were talking about playing jazz drums before, where, you're learning different styles, you're hearing different recordings and being taught by the person who's the best at this particular skill within the sales organization.

You did that as a drummer and then as a seller where you were picking pieces from different people, you're enabling a culture that allows the rest of your team to do that. What impact does that have on the culture and the culture's idea about what's possible?

Steve Waters: I want a culture that is collaboratively competitive we all want everyone to crush quota, but we all want to be the best on the team, and, balance those two, so create a culture where we will never hide top tracks or great emails or great turns of phrase or, the great collateral that someone's created that can visually represent, how we can solve the problems or, these things like that.

am is encouraged to do that. [: 00:21:00

So we can try them out to have them, guide conversation and get a discussion going about different aspects of sales and how we can get really good at that. I will say, Hey, to every new hire, Hey, the top 10 sellers at zoom info. They all sell very differently. They all have a very different authentic voice, but they know what that is, but it's not like we're just cranking out the same kinds of sellers.

I think there are some companies that do that and we don't, but what's nice about that is there is a landscape of peaks on, the hall of fame of sales here at zoom info, and you can. Find what peak matches the way that you want to sell. And then listen to every single one of those people's calls.

essed with the best reps and [: 00:22:00

I could listen to every recording, Carter Beauford from Dave Matthews has ever done, and I could try to play everything, it's note for note, but it's still gonna come out like me, it's not gonna be exactly identical to him. And that's valuable so that other people can see that, oh, there's this other really great celebrity with their own unique voice, I'll listen to them and try to pick up one to three things every time I listen to a call, and then implement it.

It's tougher to hold people accountable for that. So obviously we want to manage the bestsellers that are self motivated. So there are some like activity metrics of things and then there are in the one on ones you can say, okay, which calls did you listen to? What did you gather? You have to send me a recording of you implementing this.

I went into my VP's office. [: 00:23:00

And I said, Oh, I'm going to tell the story about a company called iGel. And he said, Alright, let's hear it. And I was just like, Oh, no that's awkward. You're worse in your office. I don't want to do that. And he's Steve, tell me the damn story. So I was like, Okay. So I told him the story, and he goes, Steve, that sucked.

Do it again. I did it one more time. He was like, that was way better. Just do it one more time to lock it in. So I told him the story again. He's that's perfect. Go tell it on your next call. And it was a follow up call where I had talked to an individual contributor, and I was getting to power and open it up with the CEO.

And I just said, Hey, Before we dive in, there's this story of a company that reminds me of you, and it was the CEO of that company. Mind if I tell you that story in about two minutes? He said, no, I'd love to hear it. And I told this story, and knocked it out of the park, because I had practiced it, and role played it beforehand.

closed them for about two X [: 00:24:00

And that can apply to any aspect of sales, . It's. It's nice to learn who's the best seller at a certain thing, but if we can't get the reps to translate it and actually apply it it's all for naught and role playing is one of the really valuable ways to be able to do that.

Lucas Price: Yeah, I love that. So if our listeners are thinking about, okay, I want to, do the things that Steve's talking about. I want to. Elevate the sellers that have the best skills so that they can teach the rest of my team, make their recordings available to the rest of my team. I want my team to be in a place where they're practicing and role playing and improving their skills and doing it in their own authentic way.

What are the things that they should be thinking about when they're implementing that in order to do it well?

hink systems are much better [: 00:25:00

Do we need to emphasize the things that are going well and get better at them? And then all of us marching to the same drummers that we're committing to those things. It's that system. It's that repeatable process That makes it all work. That said, I think, it would be I'm really surprised if someone tried this and for some reason the sales team pushed back.

I suppose there are places where everyone is just like out for themselves and they all just want to do their own things and they won't share what's working and they won't collaborate. Maybe that's that is something that happens in different sales teams. But if so, I don't really want to be a part of it.

t to do these things and the [: 00:26:00

If not, just ask each sales rep individually, get a list of what you think they're good at, and then think, okay, which one do I want to teach to the team? And just start there. That's probably the easiest way to go about it.

Lucas Price: And what could go wrong? What should people watch out for to make sure that they don't do as they're trying to do that?

Steve Waters: You know the phrase if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail, you can tend to over rotate on the skills that we recognize people for, . As an example, one of my reps just, he was closing two and a half times more one call closes than anyone else had.

ime, but he was just so good [: 00:27:00

Let's recognize this rep for that. And then it turned out that he just would then try to one call everything. Cause he's I'm the one call guy. That's what I'm good at, and then I want the team to recognize me cause I'm so good. And it's just that's a valuable thing to be able to do, but you also don't want to over rotate and try to force people to make a decision when they don't want to, in a way that's counterproductive, the worse example would be like, if you recognize someone on a team for their technical expertise.

And then they just start product dumping about all the different technical aspects of the problem that they forget to sell that they can over rotate as to what their like superpower is. I think we have to keep in mind that yes, you may be the best or on the team or very good at this one thing, but you can't over rotate.

're always going back to the [: 00:28:00

There's some tension that happens when, if there's a rep that's only been here for two or three months, but they're just crushing and they bring in a skill from outside of the org. There's a tension that happens with the sales reps and they go, Oh my God this new rep is so much better than I am at this thing.

And I've been here for 18 months, but that's good. I think that's a, we need to keep people on their toes and they're either going to sink or they're going to swim. But most people are going to react in a good way to that and be inspired by a new person. It's just, it's to use the musical analogy again, it's like sometimes you see someone who's so good at music, it makes you want to give up.

in the org or trade them to [: 00:29:00

But I do think that tension that comes from recognizing people that are maybe younger or have been here less time, it Lights of fire under the right team members and the right ones will get inspired by that. Yeah,

Lucas Price: Great stuff, Steve. To wrap us up here today, just when we think about all the things in our conversation today, what are the two or three things that our guests should leave in terms of the pillars of building? a collaboratively competitive culture.

Steve Waters: I think it's just to add a few things. I think when I look for people that'll be part of that culture I want those that are a joy to work with that work really hard and have a lot of like cerebral horsepower. You can't be dumb and then be good at selling here at least. And so if I can recognize, that second one of how gritty Someone is, that we can't teach.

ave all the answers and lean [: 00:30:00

It's not to dominate the conversation when we're teaching that, but to actually encourage a discussion and let people ask questions and to get in the nuances of how that rep is thinking about the thing that they're so good at. Where their mindset is at when they're doing that and let the individual reps ask questions about those components and then, I would say be relentlessly positive and show appreciation for those people, whether they want it in private or they want it publicly.

That recognition and that momentum, when somebody's got the hot hands, get them the ball, let your shooter shoot and in the same way, that's what we should do when we're trying to create an elite sales team. If you have an average sales team, you can make them elite just by constantly trying to improve how they're selling, holding them accountable and then doing that role playing, even though it's uncomfortable.

y other thing I would add is [: 00:31:00

Or, Hey, I created this custom deck for my next sales call. Can you go over it? And he would add creating that kind of culture and let them do that independent of me or the directors of the sales managers. That's going to unlock so much more. And that's going to be a place where it's a joy to work, where everyone's crossing the numbers, where they're never going to leave.

And sales nirvana. So I would encourage everybody to think about, doing those things and. Just try it and then you know if they have questions about how I'm doing it or how I think about it You know, I always respond to every single message I get on LinkedIn so they can find me there and I'm happy to let them pick my brain about That kind of stuff and the mistakes I've made or nuances or different questions or techniques So they can always reach out to me there

n additional takeaway that I [: 00:32:00

And I think one of the, one of the reasons that you. Transition from, not being a strong leader early on to being a great leader is that you learned that you have to lead with your own authenticity. And I think that's something that I learned well. So that's a takeaway for me from today's you already mentioned people can find you on LinkedIn, Steve waters.

If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a review in your favorite podcast player. And you can find me on LinkedIn as well at Lucas price or yardstick. team. Thank you for joining us today.